"Walking Away From The Ledge" Author & Retired Blackhawk Pilot Chris Kruger

Kicking off Season 2 🎉
In this first episode of Hidden Chapters, Genevieve welcomes her husband, Chris to discuss his newly published book, his journey in the Army, the challenges of deployments, and the impact of the Afghanistan withdrawal on veterans. They explore the mental health struggles faced by service members, the difficulties of reintegration into civilian life, and the importance of sharing personal stories to foster connection and understanding. 

Chapters
00:00 Celebrating Milestones and New Beginnings
02:55 Chris's Journey: From Average to Army
07:28 The Army Experience: Challenges and Growth
14:48 Deployment Realities: Training vs. Reality
21:01 The Weight of Service: Reflections on Afghanistan
27:02 Mental Health Struggles: Finding Meaning After Service
28:02 Overcoming Mental Struggles and Finding Purpose
29:47 The Challenges of Reintegration
32:14 Navigating Emotional Transitions After Deployment
35:14 The Impact of Compartmentalization
38:31 Frustrations with Military Hierarchy
41:34 Encouraging Veterans to Share Their Stories
45:07 The Importance of Taking Time Off After Service
47:41 Perseverance Through Struggles
48:41 The Role of Communication in Relationships
52:05 Encouraging Others to Share Their Hidden Chapters

All the links to connect with Chris: 

📚 Purchase "Walking Away From the Ledge" on Amazon:  https://a.co/d/aIIhZxm

🇺🇸 Parade Deck blog: Volume 1 

🔗 FB: Chris Kruger 

🗒️ Substack: https://substack.com/@theaccidentalauthor

Transcript

Genevieve: 0:54

Hey, welcome back to Hidden Chapters. Season two is here. If you caught our bonus preseason episode two weeks ago, you know we celebrated a huge milestone, over a thousand downloads in just three short months. That's a thousand moments where someone chose this podcast out of three million plus shows available. Listeners are tuning in from across the U.S. and across the world, and this tells me it's no longer just my friends and family listening. Our reach is growing, and that means more hidden stories is being heard, more connection, and more encouragement. So thank you for being part of that. This season, we're diving into powerful new stories from newly published authors, and I'll also share a couple of solo episodes of my own hidden chapters. And what better way to help kick things off than with the person who's been cheering me on from the very beginning. He's been the sounding board for my podcast brainstorms, the encourager when I doubted myself, and yes, even the one keeping the household quiet while I record in the closet. He's also been on his own journey of launching a hidden chapter in book form, so it's only fitting that he's here with me now to start season two. My husband Chris and I have been married for 19 years, and I've had the privilege of walking beside him for 18 of his 22 and a half years in the Army. We faced deployments together, highs and lows, and we're still here figuring out what's next. Chris started out in the Army as an infantryman and then became a Black Hawk maintenance test pilot. Along the way, he went through some of the military's toughest trainings and multiple deployment overseas. After retiring, he worked on his bachelor's degree at Liberty University, and in that same season, he started writing down his Army experiences. His original goal was simply to pass those stories on to our daughters when they were of appropriate ages. But what began as a way to preserve memories quickly became something more. It became almost therapeutic, helping him process the weight of service and mental health struggles. With a little encouragement from me and a gentle recommendation not to let it just sit as a forgotten document on a computer, with the help of friends' connections to an editor and publisher, this private writing journey turned into a three-year process. And now, his first published book. With his book completed and launched, Chris is here to share some of the Army experience that he shared in his book, but really get real and honest about the dissatisfaction and and some other honest topics worth sharing because there are things not a lot of people talk about, which makes it perfect for Hidden Chapters podcast. So Chris, thank you for always being my support and for being my first guest in season two.

Chris: 3:49

Well, thank you for having me on. I'm looking forward to it.

Genevieve: 3:52

Okay, so let's go back to the beginning. You said that you were just an average guy in school. You couldn't even do pull-ups. So what drew you to join the Army in the first place? And how did that decision change your life from feeling below average to achieving things well above what you thought possible?

Chris: 4:11

Yeah, so one thing that was in the book that got cut initially and did end up in the blog, but now I kind of wish it would have stayed in the book, was that all during middle school, even high school, I really couldn't do pull-ups when those presidential fitness tests came around. You know, I had to do the hang for as long as you can in a chin-up position, and it usually wasn't very long. I don't know, 10, maybe 15 seconds if I was lucky. And I wasn't very active in sports in high school or anything like that either. just go into the games and all that. So when, you know, guidance counselor mentioned the military, I was like, no, like I can't even do these basic things. And, you know, maybe I could do 10 pushups or something like that, but I just wasn't physically in the position that I thought I should be in to be able to go into the military. After high school and working a little bit and hitting the gym, full body, body weight and some weight workouts, you know, I thought, okay, well, you know, I'm not as weak as I thought I was and I could actually do pull-ups. and do them pretty well because I was so lightweight. So after that point... I was just kind of like okay well I can I can do some physically demanding things and then I bumped into the same army recruiter three different times three different locations in Spokane and I had a different job every single time so I just kind of took it as God's sign as this is where I was supposed to go and instead of fighting it or making up excuses I just went ahead with it and signed up and I didn't know I learned going through that process that there's so many ways to be a soldier. And all I knew was infantry and tanks. And even though I saw the videos for the other options, I was like, no, I want to go infantry with airborne ranger in my contract. You know, just going to go all in, just challenge myself, I guess, so I could be the strongest, physically fit, combative, all that type of stuff, just going into it because I thought that's what the Army was. So that's what I went for when I joined in.

Genevieve: 6:15

Yeah. I just want to share that. I thought it was kind of funny when you told me that first story of how you dodged the recruiter at three different places. You want to share that just real quick. I think that's just a funny story to share.

Chris: 6:27

Yeah. And that's, uh, it's in the book too, but, uh, since the book is out, I can, I feel like I can start giving away a little bit more details. But, uh, the first time, you know, I was just kind of perusing the mall and he, you know, he's like, he's like, Hey, thought about the army. And I was like, Nope, not in the slightest. He's like, well, I got to fill, I got to get so many of these cards filled out to meet my quota for the day. Would you mind filling one out? I was like, sure. So I filled one out in the like most garbage chicken scratch. It was probably the only thing legible was the phone number because the numbers looked right. And, uh, and he called and I pretended I wasn't home, even though, you know, I was, wasn't doing anything anyway. And just, you know, that was that, uh, the second time I was working with diamond parking downtown, charging people to park at concerts or whatever. And, uh, he pulled in the parking lot and I started walking up to him. I was like, that's five or $10 for parking, whatever it was at the time. And he says, oh, I'm not staying here. Have you thought about joining the army? And I was like this mother, you know, just like, no. And he's like, well, here's a card if you change your mind. And I think I filled out a card then too, but I just put the wrong number down. Didn't even care. And then, you know, it took me a second to recognize him. Then the final time I was walking to a buddy's house because I think at that point I didn't even have a job had you know my little initial you know trials with community college and wasn't doing anything I bumped into him and I was like fine so I filled it out legibly address phone number name all that stuff and it was like talk to you soon so it was after that that I was like I guess this is where I'm going this is what I'm doing because I didn't have anything else going on and I didn't know what to do so I just kind of was like I'm all right, God, I guess this is what you want me to do. Let's go on this journey. And, uh, yeah, it's, it's, uh, it's had its ups and downs ever since. But I will say, since I'm here with you, if I wouldn't have joined the army, I wouldn't have met you and we wouldn't have our two beautiful daughters going through this life together. And for all the ins, outs, ups, downs, goods, bads, uh, all that rollercoaster of it all, I would not trade it for what not signing up. for the army would have brought.

Genevieve: 8:48

Yeah. Well, God had other plans and we knew because I said I would never marry military. Growing up as a military brat and then seeing the hardship of being military and moving, I was that military kid that was the new kid after Christmas. So I remember growing up saying I'm never going to marry military. God had other plans on that one too.

Chris: 9:08

And with that then too, for people who know about Fort Bragg, North Carolina or Vietnam as it's a affectionately referred to sometimes. I never imagined I was going to meet a woman worthwhile there as well. So, you know, just, yeah, God had other plans and all around. So yes, I found one of probably a handful of wonderful women in the Fayetteville, North Carolina area.

Genevieve: 9:37

And here we are today, able to share our story. So looking back, you weren't in special forces, but you still pushed yourself to excel in the army. So share a little bit of that moment from your early careers that really made you feel like you were part of something bigger, even if it wasn't an elite path.

Chris: 9:56

Well, so I just wasn't going to quit anything that was brought my way. Um, I, I don't remember making a mental determination of that, but you know, there were times in basic training where we had a guy go AWOL and you're like, Ooh, that sounds pretty good. Cause this sucks right now. And you know, I just like, no, I'm obviously not not going to do that. I didn't, you know, I was too scared to and didn't know what I was going to do. I was thousands of miles away from home. The only home I knew, uh, cause it was in, uh, Fort Lenning, Georgia. So, you know, I wasn't going to make my way back to Spokane and I had nothing else to do anyway. So I wasn't going to do that. And then it was airborne school. And then the ranger indoctrination program or rip holdover right after that, um, which I'll leave those details in the book, but I did fail rip. So I never made it into ranger battalion. I do remember after that point, I was like, cool, when I get to my first unit, I'm going to do whatever I have to do to go to ranger school. It's kind of like a redemption shot for not making it a ranger battalion. And like I said, it just became this thing where I wasn't going to quit. No matter what went on in my mind, how much pain I was in physically, emotionally, mentally, I was just gonna, you know, my body would have to shut down on itself before I would mentally quit on anything I did and that really showed through at the unit with the sergeants that were there one of the first things we did after we got there was this 10 mile run just before New Year's of 2001 and somewhere near the end of it I was just like I didn't know how much further we had to go because I didn't know the area and I didn't know we were right near the end and I was like okay I'm gonna start slowing back and one of the NCOs comes running up and he's you know beside me and he's like he's like don't you quit now we're almost home and I was like okay and And that was just enough motivation that I needed to get there. And me and three of the other guys that I got there at the same time with, that's a Fox company, 51st infantry, long range surveillance company, the, uh, premier Lurse unit in the army. Uh, some echo company guys might have, might have something to say about that, but

Speaker 02: 12:05

whatever.

Chris: 12:06

Um, um, yeah, me and these, uh, three other guys finished first. And so kind of all eyes were on us as, you know, top of the top of the rung of the new guys that came. So that kind of helped me as well to just be like, whatever I do, I'm just not going to quit. And that has that mentality alone, not necessarily having a full out game plan or anything has led me to do some great things with that too. Then it was expert infantryman badge. And then after that, emergency medical technician training, which I was a nationally registered emergency medical technician or EMT Bravo basic. And after that, to pre-ranger school, ranger school, amphibious reconnaissance school, all these other trainings that while maybe not at the fullest elite level, your average infantry guy down at the 82nd didn't get these opportunities like I did. So, you know, like I said, it was just basically like, okay, I was brought to this and I'm going to see it through and I'm not going to quit. And, you know, success came from, from not quitting and all these gifts of all these schools, I guess the best way to say it would be that they were a gift, you know, came as a result of me just quitting.

Genevieve: 13:25

Yeah. Well, I'll always say that you're cooler than I am because you've done some pretty neat things in your Army career. So I remember you mentioned all those trainings from Fest, rope repelling, air assault, multi-ship operations, and night ops too. So what did that training feel like for you? And how did that build your sense of purpose and readiness for combat?

Chris: 13:49

You know, the training, like I said, I just, I went through it and it was just what we had to do. And, you know, we learned from it, tried to make it work. ourselves better going through it all so you know you do everything in daytime conditions just as rehearsals with maybe running it with your buddies no weapons and then you get to the range and you're just kind of a weapon and you go through it and then it's with kit and then it's at night with night vision goggles and all that kind of stuff and it was the same for aviation the first practices are daytime and you progressively get more challenging and challenging you add in you know nighttime and then more aircraft and all that stuff. So going through it, it was such a progression that it wasn't... It was always tough, of course, but it wasn't like... this is too much. And it was always the way it progressed. It was always fun and just challenging yourself and getting better and all those conditions throughout that. So I guess because it was what I was doing, I never looked at it and was like, this is cool. I think in halo school, you have kind of a moment to go, Oh, I'm getting it. This is cool. Like, and then, and it is. And that's why I think for me, skydiving was the most fun thing I've ever done in and out of the army. Um, because it is cool. Uh, everything else to me pales in comparison. riding motorcycles, flying helicopters, all that stuff to me just pales in comparison to just throwing yourself out of an aircraft at 15,000 feet, jumping with some buddies, linking up, you know, screwing around in the air and then throwing that parachute out and come in, have a nice landing and then go in and do it again. So that was the only one where I can say like this was really cool training and everything else was just a progression where it got more challenging. But again, you know, I was just going to continue to not quit and try and be the best that I could while we were going through it.

Genevieve: 15:43

Yeah. So you joined the Army before 9-11, had done all of these trainings for preparation for any world war that would happen. And then 9-11 hit and you deployed. So your first deployment was to Iraq for a year. Can you talk a little bit more about how you had prepared? But then once you got there, all of those trainings and those things that you had been practicing and training for didn't really end up being the thing that you would do when you were deployed?

Chris: 16:14

Yeah. So with long range surveillance, the mission is for six guys to go ahead of the flaw, the forward line of troops, uh, provide Intel for an upcoming hit or, or whatever, another unit to come in and be successful at their mission, engaging whatever target you went in and looked at. Um, And that was what we would train on in training it, whether it was at JRTC in Fort Polk, Louisiana or any, anywhere else that we train, that's what we would train on. And we did a couple of missions like that early on after the invasion. But one of the first things we did after rolling into Iraq was pull the airfield security, I say with finger quotes, because we were just kind of securing this little landing strip in the middle of nowhere in the desert for UAVs or UAS systems unmanned aerial vehicles and systems to be able to launch and take off so we were just out there plopped down as a unit just wasting away for like two weeks and then we moved on to to crit and then to Missoula and we finally got some actual missions observing kind of patterns of life and things like that with traffic and there were supposed to be some other things but then it ended up being patrolling which is an infantry task of course but a vehicle mounted patrolling in Missoula. And early on there, there wasn't a whole lot of resistance. There wasn't any firefights, anything about it. And we just rolled, you know, rotated teams that went out and however many vehicles and all that stuff. We had some other kind of meet and greets of North Dahuk and Zako areas in Northern Iraq. And with the Peshmerga that were in the area, they were Kurdish fighters that occupied the North there. And then, you know, there was some training for terrorist training camp, suspected terrorist training camp interdictions and things like that that never went anywhere. But here we are in Iraq not doing our mission because... or not doing our primary mission because there wasn't really anything to go watch for objective-wise for other units to come and engage them. With these vehicle-mounted patrols, they were just kind of like just driving around the city, but we didn't have up-armored Humvees, so we were just guys rolling around the back of an open Humvee just rolling targets at that point. So it was a little discouraging, but, you know, being young, dumb, didn't care. I'm ready for anybody to shoot at me so we can shoot back or whatever, which, you know, didn't happen really on the regular if at all for most of us and then the last thing we did a little over midway through so August if I remember right of 2003 we went up to Zaco and stayed in a compound up there to train up Iraqi border patrol and I didn't mind it because then we had like vehicles and gear and all this other stuff to kind of train them up so it was cool because of where we're at getting out of the cities down there, getting up into the kind of more mountainous areas, a little cooler up there. But, um, the deployments continued to go like that where it was just a lot of vehicle mounted patrolling through the deserts and there wasn't a whole lot of team level missions. Uh, and I, and I cover that in more detail in the book. But then when we switched over to aviation, it became the same thing. We trained up for multi-ship aerosols on objectives and that was our primary focus of training. But, uh, And what ended up being was, you know, what they call milk runs, you know, just flying people from here to there so that they could make their meetings on time. And, you know, without having to do VTC, it ended up just feeling like a ginormous waste of time. on all my aviation deployments because everything we trained for, we weren't allowed to do. And it was just transporting people from point A to point B. And even on my final deployment in 2019, 2020 to Kandahar, we were supporting some special forces missions, you know, interdicting targets and doing these other things. And then all of a sudden, because we weren't flying the right colored Blackhawks, you know, we weren't allowed to do these missions anymore because command and didn't want to assume the risk. And that seemed to be the final straw on all these things. We were trained in Halo ops, but nobody wanted to do the Halo mission in Iraq because they didn't want to assume the risk. And nobody wanted to let us do whatever in Afghanistan because we were flying green Blackhawks, not black Blackhawks, and they didn't want to assume the risk. So that was definitely an issue of contention and disappointment on all these deployments that even though we were just as well trained as anybody else, we took the training seriously. We did the training seriously. Took the time to refine it when we had that time to. We weren't in SOCOM. We weren't in the special community. So we weren't allowed to do the things that we trained for. So it ended up feeling like our training was invalidated and it was a waste.

Genevieve: 21:33

So with all of the training that you've done, it's obviously weighed on you six deployments. were there specific moments in all of these deployments where you just realized a chain of command was holding you back because a risk aversion and how did all of us start to culminate to where those letdowns affected your mindset daily

Chris: 21:55

yeah so and and to clarify with the chain of command letting it wasn't letting me down it was letting us all down And a lot of it became just, what's the point? You know, if, if we're just, if I'm flying a Lieutenant Colonel, Colonel General, whoever around, so he can go do a meeting and, To me, that was fraud, waste and abuse because they could have just as easy done that meeting as a BTC and they didn't need us. And that was resources that could have been allocated other ways for more serious missions. And at the same time, now we're flying around daytime couple aircraft and we're just a target flying around same thing with infantry we're just rolling around being a target for something that possibly didn't need to happen i the challenge was i can't change it myself and if i speak up and say something it's just going to fall on deaf ears and it's not going to matter so that that was that was the struggle that it just became like what's the point of us even being here if this is all it's going to be and we're not engaging the enemy we're not you know doing the mission that we signed up for in the army we're just flying men, weapons and equipment. And that could be women, too. But that's what we say. MWE, men, weapons and equipment from point A to point B. Like, what's what's the point, you know, aside from getting someone or something to where it needs to be?

Genevieve: 23:36

So you spent several years deploying. And then after all of those deployments in your 22 and a half year career, the withdrawal from Afghanistan seemed like the ultimate invalidation for you. So after 20 years of sacrifice, losing limbs, life, a president pulls out, leaving helicopters, Humvees, MRAPs, weapons, everything behind. So how did that moment hit you, making your entire career feel like a waste?

Chris: 24:06

So just the way they went about pulling everybody out while we were there in 2020, there was a planned withdrawal and it was ongoing. And we saw Kandahar was small in comparison to what, uh, all the people who had been deployed there prior had said it was like, you know, just busy all the time and buffling. And there wasn't, uh, you know, very many units there. So the, the withdrawal was slow calculated and going and then a year after we get home four years ago roughly now they decide to just abandon it altogether no withdrawal just pull everybody out right now let's go leaving all that equipment that you mentioned and so to me it was just such a punch in the gut and not only that just 13 more lost lives on top of everything else right then and there with an administration that didn't care care they didn't hold anybody accountable they just did it and were like trying to celebrate that we were out of afghanistan after 20 years and i'm all for that but why you know without a solid plan now The Taliban is more emboldened. And not only that, they're more emboldened with greater equipment than they would have ever had. So in all honesty, from what you can see from the outside, is that Afghanistan is in a worse off position than if we never even would have went there afterward. If you see a movie, 13 Strong, about special forces that goes in there right after 9-11 and is bombing all these places in northern Afghanistan and retaliatory attacks right I don't know the whole details of it just what that movie showed but you know things were happening so then we invade occupy and then we just pull out and leave and now they have all this gear and they're better equipped to me it just it did it invalidated all the training all the loss of life all the loss of limbs all those people who have PTSD or other traumatic issues that they're going through afterward It made all of it just useless and not worth the effort it was to spend all that time there. And, you know, the only thing I'm not mentioning is the money because it all costs money, but it costs more than that. It costed lives. And so to just, again, to just abandon it, just straight up invalidated every bit of loss we've experienced over 20 years. And to me, it's really just a slap in the face to all the family members who lost a service member during that time as well it just there I don't think there's any other way to see it regardless of of how you view view it in that time just and And then for me, not only that, it invalidated all my service because, you know, I have 11 combat stripes. That's 66 months I spent in the Middle East. 70 months of deployed time total in my military career and all of it was for nothing. That's the only way I see it is all of it was for nothing because we were just going to walk away and abandon and leave them emboldened, empowered and all that stuff because now the Taliban saw that all they had Thanks for playing, Loser.

Genevieve: 27:59

Yeah, that raw invalidation that ties directly into the mental battles that you faced coming back. And so that's essentially where your book explores a lot of that. And you talk about the mental struggles, including the suicidal thoughts, which your book Walking Away from the Ledge dives more into. And I know from my perspective, I saw a lot of that frustration and anger on the other side. So share those invalidations from your career into those battles and what it took to start pulling yourself back.

Chris: 28:28

It was, you know, yeah for going to the suicidal thoughts or ideation it was just that nothing i did matter nothing i did here at home nothing i did there at work nothing i did on a deployment anywhere nothing seemed to matter didn't matter if i was a good leader a good maintenance test pilot a good maintenance professional um pilot anything that just none of it mattered and I just wanted to end it all. And then the biggest thing that stopped me was fear of failure and that I would live through it and be a bigger burden to my family than any amount of my drinking or personal struggles with anything was going to be, that I'd be a bigger burden in the long run. So really the mental struggles was at that point that I wanted to be better for my family and you know I didn't come to that conclusion snap my fingers and everything was magically better you know it's been and that was from about August of 21 to now it's been a long road and you know that and the thing is I have to continue on the road to continue to overcome and just remember that you know I'm not there now my service wasn't invalidated by that regardless of how I feel it wasn't invalidated but with writing the book you know putting my thoughts on paper being able to process it better and share that with people it has helped me to see that I have impacted lives. You know, that I have... impacted people for the better, that they still look at me fondly, that my family still loves me and wants me around. But writing it all out had helped me to be able to say, like, here's my frustration, get it out there, the emotions out of me. And now it's encouraging other people to do the same thing to where they were just going to push on past it as well.

Genevieve: 30:43

Yeah. And I think that's something you and I have spoken about several times is they don't know the talked about the reintegration, that people see the happy homecomings, but what they don't see is the daily struggle because now you're having to reintegrate with family and you're having to reintegrate with society. And I know that a lot of those things you felt like you took all those months away from family and coming home for what?

Chris: 31:11

Well, and the homecoming on the other side is that we're all happy to come home and while we're on our way home, you know, we're thinking about the will want to see the places we want to go the foods we want to eat and all that stuff and and I think it's so service member focused that though it's hard to take that time and remember that you know while while you were home, and I know you were taken care of monetarily, you weren't at any type of fear of loss for the house or food on the table, there was still this underlying thing that family members have to go through as well to shut off their fear in themselves so that they can push on through without just spending every moment in torment that they're gonna get that message or the knock on the door with a flag and a chaplain. And I think, you know, for the people deployed, we signed up to up to and including our lives. Right. So sometimes I think that becomes the expectation that something's going to happen. I'm not going to make it home, so I don't have to worry about it. And then I make it home and it's hard to go from, okay, I may die here. I'm most likely going to die here. So I don't have to worry so much about what's on the back end of that to, oh, I'm home now. I just went from nine, 12, 15 months of having to kind of shut off emotionally or be concerned about loss of life, limer, hindsight to now I'm home and I'm safer, but it doesn't, your brain doesn't automatically switch back into safe mode. There's no, there's, there's no switch there to go. I'm in danger. I'm in danger. I'm in danger, but I shut that off so I can focus and get my job done, uh, to I'm safe. Now your brain stays wired in that danger mode. And for some people, I think it's forever if they don't ever go and get that help. So it's definitely a challenge to, you know, do that 180. And that's part of the other process of... Of coming back home and trying to reintegrate and take those steps because we all just think it's going to be natural. And it's just it's not a natural process to go from what you experienced during deployment to coming back home. You know, we all just we all just think it's going to be easy. Hey, I'm back home and I'm normal. Everything's normal. Everything's good. But we're not. It changed us mostly permanently. but at least if not permanently for a good amount of time and if we don't take any steps to go through that process whatever it may be counseling therapy journaling listening to encouraging podcasts whatever we're going to stay stuck in that mode too yeah which is another thing that I just kind of came to as well with writing the book I was like like you said having something to hand the girls yeah so they knew what I went through or what I did for 22 two years, but also to once I got into it and realized the emotion poured out of it and how it felt to kind of release, release those emotions, release those thoughts, put them back in and leave them where they're supposed to be. It helped a lot.

Genevieve: 34:42

Yeah. And I've heard it several times where men have either by army or just by training, learn to compartmentalize so they can put work in a workbox, family in a family box put both of those up, neither touch, but unpacking those is tough because you've pushed it down all those years.

Chris: 35:02

Well, I think too, since you mentioned that, this just came to mind, compartmentalization, it's just not, I think too, and not a doctor, but maybe there's something more for soldiers or military members specifically where it's just not even compartmentalized in the same drawer. We put it all in a different drawer And then we don't open that drawer back up. Yeah. I mean, that might be something. I'm sure there's an expert out there that could, you know, confirm or deny that for me. But I mean, maybe it's just the family, the concerns, the bills, mowing the grass, all that stuff. It just it's not even compartmentalized anymore. It's moved to another drawer and it's moved there for so long. It collects dust. And then we just don't like care about it anymore or care about it to include family. Unfortunately, like we did. those times before so that's and that's another reason why you know we expect to come home and just be like okay cool i'm gonna open this drawer back up or i'm gonna open this box back up but it just doesn't open the same and we gotta navigate that whole thing

Genevieve: 36:09

yeah so i know that this is a common veteran struggle that we hear a lot this hidden chapters it goes way deeper so i know there's a part in your book where you felt could capture the heart of what you've been through.

Chris: 36:24

So yeah, this is an excerpt from my book. And these were my thoughts when we were coming back from Pacific Pathways, which wasn't a combat deployment, but it was still pretty crappy to say the least. But when we get to this point in the book, I kind of was a little bit on a tirade of some things. And then I kind of stepped outside of myself to think of what someone else might be thinking if they thought I was whiny. So the excerpt goes, you may be thinking, Kristen, that doesn't sound so bad. You're in the military. What do you want? The four seasons? Well, yes and no. All I ever wanted was to believe in the delusion that someone in the chain of command beyond the company commander cared about us. Mission first? Sure. No doubt. But to what extent? Another factor at this point in my 18 years is that I have already deployed to the Middle East for longer than 70% of the people around me have. What's worse, I've already deployed twice as many times and had twice as many length of deployed time as those who have been in the same amount of time and are also in charge of me. You know how infuriating it is to have 18 years of military experience, 8 years of aviation experience, and 4 years of MTP experience, and then have all your suggestions, recommendations, and experience straight up dismissed by some F and LT that has been in for 3 years? It's beyond infuriating. To take a training or live scenario, lay out every possible course of action, recommend the best one to take and then every bit of advice based on years of experience is disregarded because some effer has a college degree in criminal justice is just criminal in and of itself if some of this sounds like entitled whininess then I'll concede that some of it is but I think I have well and truly earned the right to it at this point And it always reminded me of that Joe Pesci line from my cousin Vinny, when he approaches the judge and says, you know, just a well thought out argument of why some expert on tire rubber shouldn't be allowed to give his testimony on the witness stand. And the judge says, you know, that was well thought out, articulated, all that stuff. And Joe Pesci looks up and says, thank you. And he goes, overruled, you know, and that's, you can only, you know, he handled it one time in the movie and, you know, he mutters some stuff almost home alone styles. He's walking away from the judge and all that stuff. And that's how now, now take that one incident that was funny from my cousin Vinny and just compound that near daily, like how long could you sit here and endure being told, you know, hey, that's a good idea. Go after yourself.

Speaker 02: 39:10

Yeah.

Chris: 39:11

Essentially. And until you're just tired of it and you're like, fine, you know, add that compound metal into everything else that I was experiencing. And this was three years before the suicide ideation. So there was three more years of stuff on top of it.

Genevieve: 39:25

Yeah.

Chris: 39:25

Yeah.

Genevieve: 39:26

Yes. Is it more freeing saying it out loud?

Chris: 39:28

Like, like I just said in there, you know, when you read it in the book, you're be like, well, he's whiny. But here's the thing. We live near Redstone Arsenal, right? And I go on post regularly to work out or to the commissary or anywhere else, and you see the front row parking spots. They all say, G.O., General Officer, and then somebody else, or Command Sergeant Major and all this stuff, right? So what may sound like entitled whininess, and I'm using whininess in place of a word that starts with a B, but Yeah. All I ever wanted... or hoped for was what would, in my eyes, kind of naturally be due my rank. I didn't want special treatment, special privilege, you know, they say, oh, I will not use my rank for special privilege treatment, blah, blah, blah, right? And I didn't want special treatment. I just wanted the respect that came with the rank that I had without having to fight for it. And even as a senior chief warden of three maintenance test pilot in the army I didn't expect that everything I said would go but I expected that if I gave something based off of my experience it didn't matter you know most most company commanders I had would take it into respect and even even fight for it instead of fight against it but it was it was in the midst of all those things where there was somebody outside that influence it was like basically no it's my way that it was just the infuriating portion. But to answer your question, yeah, it's a little more freeing reading it out loud, but it's even more freeing that I'm away from it and I don't have to worry about it anymore. But if I go and get a job in the civilian side, I would have a little bit more freedom to be, hey, Bob, you know, maybe it should be this or that. And we have a discussion about it rather than like, no, you just started working here. You don't know what you're

Genevieve: 41:33

talking about. Yeah. Well, I also think since you have retired, And you've had this chance to have the time off. It has allowed some of this anger that you came out of service with, all this feelings and emotions that you had to kind of settle. So I think that's also helped to settle. articulate more now than you probably did three years ago. Your book is going to be especially important now because there are those veterans that are still struggling to explain what they've been through. And it's hard for a lot of the family members like myself. I don't pretend to know everything that you've been through and I don't have the words for you a lot of times. And so speaking to another veteran is helpful. So how do you hope that sharing this pulls other veterans out of silence? and helps them feel like they're less alone in their invalidation. I

Chris: 42:29

think a lot of other veterans are just they want to do almost like the deployment thing. I've been deployed, now I'm home.

Speaker 02: 42:39

Yeah.

Chris: 42:40

And I can be home. And it just, like we talked about, you can't flip that switch. And I think a lot of veterans want to get out of the military, whatever branch, and just put it behind them like it was just another job, like they were just spent 5, 10, 15, 20 years at McDonald's flipping burgers, and now they're just moving into the next chapter. Yeah. But regular jobs out there don't require you to put on a uniform. They don't require you to lead at the level that we were leading at. They don't require you to adhere to Uniform Code of Military Justice, you know, and strict regulations and rules and all that stuff. So I would say in my experience, again, not a doctor, borderline impossible to just get out of the military and even walk into a new job. And maybe it was something like most of most of us do get out and go do the civilian version of the job that we were doing and just move on like nothing happened. So that that may be all true. but to be able to just simply walk away hang it up and be like it was just a regular day at work and nothing happened yeah I don't think that's possible to do so one a lot of people have been messaging me already after reading even just a portion of the books and you know it's encouraging them to speak up about the challenges that they're going through or their service or whatever and that's great one thing I encourage everybody to do if they're able to like in the position we were able to be in is you know take that time off breathe a little bit don't just jump right into that next job you know plan it just give yourself a time whatever that time may be and I would recommend it be longer than a month you know give some time back to your family before you just walk right into that next job if you don't have a family because something happened during your service then okay but you know still try and give a little time if you can back to those people that stood by you the whole time don't just walk into something else and expect them or in our situation see if the other one wants to do something like go back to work and give that a try and that was something we discussed at length and you know you wanted to go back to work and and so we walked we walked through that door and went through that route and that that gave me the time to be able to sit here and breathe a little easier and decide to write this book and do all that stuff. So the last thing I would say is just don't limit your, just because I was a maintenance test pilot didn't mean I needed to get out and be a civilian maintenance test pilot. I have more skill. I mean, it's a good skill set. You know, pilot's a good skill set and lucrative out there. But if you don't absolutely need the money in the moment, take a break and, you know, just ease into that next thing. Because if you jump into another job, it's just going to be distraction from what's really bothering you underneath the surface and I think we all think we can just work I'm just going to work through it I'm just going to keep it the grind because because I'm a man and that's what I do but you also and and that's commendable but we also need to take that break to realize okay hey there's something going on there's something stirring in me there's something I don't think like I used to and maybe we'll never get it back but it's worth trying to correct a potential issue before it's something that everyone's just sweeping around under the rug and being like oh well Chris is just that way when really it's a you know a destructive habit and that is kind of what I've been saying it on any other podcast I've been on too but that's what walking away from the ledge has morphed into initially it was hey this is a catchy title because I walked away from the ledge literally

Speaker 02: 46:32

yeah

Chris: 46:32

but now for me personally it's morphed into okay I need to walk away that ledge represents as a Christian sin but as in general just the destructive behaviors that would even lead me to that ledge in the first place so I need to walk away from that if that's if that's overreacting to a situation getting angry maybe when I shouldn't or or been sober for two years and eight months give or take and I'm not looking to add that back to the list of things that I need to walk away from again any time for the rest of my life so just take that time to breathe identify what your ledge is and get away from it because of what really matters your ability to drink a bunch of alcohol or your family the fact that you're out and now you can go smoke some weed or something or your family or whatever it is that's important to walk away from it I hope that answered your question I forget what it was

Genevieve: 47:33

no it was good it was just really you know what your hopes of those that are going to read the book, because I know there's a lot of friends that we've spoken with whose husbands haven't really opened up about that. And I think just hearing us talk together, I think maybe there might be a point where we could come back and just really dove into the relationship and how out of retirement, what that has been like for our communication, our marriage and all of that. So I think that's an important topic that can definitely be discussed because I think transitioning out of military after all of this is a another whole hidden chapter all on its own.

Chris: 48:10

Yeah, I think to just put a fine point off of my rambling, my hope for the book is that it encourages people to persevere through their challenges that they're going through or struggles, if you want to call it struggles instead of challenges,

Speaker 02: 48:24

but

Chris: 48:24

persevere through it because anyone who's in my shoes or even just had spent, not even made it to retirement, you persevered through so much anyway. Don't give up now. I mean, just because things look hard or whatever, or maybe, maybe unfortunately alcohol or pain medications or even drugs is the only thing that gives you some joy at the moment. Now start transitioning to where it's not those things because it's fake joy. It's not real. It's people, relationships, family, and all that stuff that is going to bring you true and lasting joy. So that's, that's what I hope people kind of take away, especially near the end of the book is that perseverance through the struggles you're going through now, seek those relationships because they matter more than whatever you think is bringing you joy at the moment.

Genevieve: 49:14

Yeah. I'm going to end with two things. The first one I wanted to kind of ask you is, and so you've been on a couple of podcasts already, so you get the joy of being with me on my podcast. Have you found it easier to discuss more of these because of the relationship that you and I being husband and wife on this one?

Chris: 49:34

And I

Genevieve: 49:35

already know all of your story.

Chris: 49:36

Yeah. Well, I can't blink twice if I need help because we're on an audio podcast. So there's that. But no, I don't feel censored at all. And you've lived through everything and you read the book and we discussed all the stuff in the book, all the stuff that we went through. So I'm comfortable talking with pretty much anybody about this because, like I said, what I want people to take away from it is not... some of those portions that sounded like me whining about my service because that's not the takeaway the takeaway is that perseverance and the whole thing because again you know if if I came into the military and was just with this mindset that I just wasn't going to quit and I'm done with the military well I'm not just going to quit now you know because because regardless of whatever we went through I love you I love our girls I love my family and And I love you guys more than other things in this world that aren't going to last. So I just... No, I don't. I don't feel censored. I don't feel like I have to hold back. If anything, there's so many other details that after all the podcasts and even after this, I'll be like, doggone it. I wanted to say this or I wanted to add that. But, you know, actually with you, I feel more free because I haven't been able to talk about on any podcast about the whole withdrawal. Yeah. I can't even call it a withdrawal, just an abandonment, you know, and it bothers me. And it should bother. a lot of people I mean okay yeah great we're out of there but at what cost

Speaker 02: 51:19

yeah

Chris: 51:19

at what cost continuing on at what cost during it what cost before it yeah and it's it's a horrendous thing to me yeah of what we did and how we did it and just leaving it what it was so no I feel that talking about it with you is actually inspiring me to open up a bit more because I also know how we stand politically Christian Lee worldly our world views in You get the explicit version with me just holding back the language so that you don't get that explicit rating.

Genevieve: 51:50

Oh, yeah. And I think that's what this whole podcast is about, too. It's really digging into those hidden chapters that we normally from face value people don't see and they don't see the real hidden struggles of how things are affecting you. So the more and more I think you and I get to talk about it being on that other side now being retired, you're able to look at it from a different light and with a little bit more clarity. So I think that's good so well the last thing I just wanted to say was how proud I was of you I am proud that you did the brave thing and you put your story on paper and if you all could see every day you sat at that computer and you wrote and there were days where you pushed literally away from the computer with a few explicits and said I'm done I'm not doing this today but I'm so proud that you have done that and that this book is out there And it is really resonating with everybody's. And then I love that you're proud of me and encourage me through all of this endeavor that I'm doing. So

Chris: 52:55

yeah, well,

Genevieve: 52:56

I think we're tackling the world in paper and in other medias.

Chris: 53:00

Well, and so for those who don't know that when Jenny said this podcast has been on her heart for a long time, let me know what equipment you need and commit to it. Just do it. And she has done that. And I have told her multiple times. I'm so proud of her for doing it and they sound great. And, and I would just encourage more guys out there to step up and share your hidden chapter. Okay. Cause we all have them. The few guys she's had on so far, they aren't the only ones with some hidden chapters and, and just like my book, somebody may need to hear your hidden chapter because they're going through the same thing and it would help to encourage them through their struggles.

Genevieve: 53:44

Yeah. Well, on that note, if today's conversation resonated with any of you, you know, you can grab Chris's book, Walking Away from the Ledge. I'll go ahead and post that link in the show notes so you can purchase that on Amazon. I promise you it's worth a read. And I'll also link all the best ways that you can keep in touch with Chris. He has actually written a blog, a parade deck blog that has some of his hilarious cut stories that didn't make it into the book that I think you'll really want to search for and take a read on those. It's something extended versions of things that you haven't been able to express. Yeah,

Chris: 54:21

especially eight or nine pages of just funny ranger school stories that ended up getting condensed down to about two paragraphs in the book to say that, you know, ranger school was challenging and persevere. But all those falling asleep, standing up and falling in a swamp or whatever, all those are in the blog on Parade Deck. And they're pretty comical and short five minute reads.

Genevieve: 54:45

Yeah. So those will all be linked in the show notes as well and if you want to keep up with all the behind the scenes of Hidden Chapters please follow me on Substack this is where we are going to start getting more in depth in those episodes that you just want to continue the conversation behind the mic so season two's got some great things happening and we just are excited to have you so this is a rare occasion that you get Genevieve and Chris on the mic thanks for listening to Hidden Chapters and remember the most powerful stories are the ones we don't see so may your Hidden Chapters bring life to someone else's journey.